The Early Days: A Sourcebook of Southwestern Region History — Book 1

The Minutes of the Apache Ranger Meeting, held at Springerville, Arizona, September 8-14, 1910, present an excellent picture of the times. They are presented exactly as they were issued in 1910.

(Note: In these Minutes no attenpt was made to keep a verbatim record of all that was said, but only a record of the most important discussions, with the conclusions reached. Owing to the tendency of several men to talk at the same time it was impossible to get a complete record. - L.F.W.)

Thursday, September 8, 1910

Meeting convened at 2:30 p.m. Those present were John D. Guthrie, Frederic Winn, Aldo Leopold, R. E. March, D. C. Martin, G.B. Chapin, H. O. Eaton, W. C. Martin, J. H. Sizer, J. C. Wheatley, R. T. Gheen, W. P. Lawson, James Reagan, J. H. Hinck.

Mr. Guthrie opened the meeting by stating the purposes of such meeting, stating in part, "We had a meeting last October and from what I can find out from the men, they all got something out of it and were certainly in favor of continuing it." He stated that a camp had been established at the Supervisor's house where sleeping and eating accommodations in tents were provided for all Forest officers in attendance. A cook and helper had been hired as well as a horse wrangler, and arrangements had been made to keep all horses in a nearby pasture.

Notices were posted giving the following committee appointments:

Shooting Match, Sunday a.m., September 11: James H. Sizer, Ch., Davis B. Rudd, Homer O. Eaton. Baseball Game, Sunday p.m., September 11: J. I. Prithchard, Ch., F. H. Mitchell, R. T. Gheen. Ranger Dance, Tuesday Evening, September 13: Aldo Leopold, Ch., W. C. Wheatley, Benton S. Rogers.

Notices were also posted stating time of meetings and meals. Notice was given of the desirability of all men eating and sleeping at camp in order to keep down expenses.

Mrs. Winn extended an invitation to all the men, through Mr. Guthrie, to attend a corn roast at her home the night of the 9th.

As a number of men were not present, the program was changed somewhat; therefore, the subjects of Supervision, Diaries, Service Reports, etc. were postponed until the following day when all the nen should arrive.

Ranger's Reading Course: The subject of Ranger's Reading Course was taken up for discussion.

Mr. Guthrie raised the questions, "Were the men getting anything out of it, and did they think it advisable to take an examination after completing a course." Also, were they able to complete the course?

G. B. Chapin: Unable to complete course: could not find time.

J. C. Wheatley: Got books during fire season and did not have an opportunity to read them. Suggested taking it up during the winter months.

D. C. Martin: Never had an opportunity to get hold of the books.

G. B. Chapin: Thinks it more practicable to take up the subject he has immediately in hand. For instance, if he is doing June 11 work, his reading course should be on that particular subject. i.e.. during the summer months.

J. D. Guthrie: Believes that if a man has an interest in the work, he will find time to read the course, in evenings, even if it takes several months. Thinks the reading course should be taken up again during the fall and winter.

(Q): "What do you think of having an examination after completing course?"

D. C. Martin: Does not think it would be justifiable because they would not have time to complete the book. He thought if a man had a good knowledge of all the work, it would be well to have an examination.

J. D. Guthrie: It is suggested that an oral examination be given.

H. O. Eaton: Does not think an examination would be absolutely necessary, although it would be of value as it would show that a man has gone over the course and as he may be called upon to do that kind of work. Eaton decided that an examination would be of some value as it would draw necessary information out of a man.

J. H. Sizer: Does not believe an examination would be of much benefit.

J. D. Guthrie: Asked Sizer if he did not believe he would read the course more carefully if he were going to have an examination.

J. H. Sizer: Did not believe he would.

W. C. Martin: Thinks it is putting reliable information where a man can get it. Also thinks an examination would be a good thing as it would give a man a chance to get an accurate knowledge on some matters.

J. D. Guthrie: District office does not say an examination should be held, but it is expected that one would be.

G. B. Chapin: Is it right that a man should devote working hours to this reading if he has no other work?

J. D. Guthrie: You have a perfect right. It is the same as reading the Use Book, as you are doing it for the good of the Service, though I would not neglect current work to read it. Aldo Leopold: It looks to me from the letter of instructions from the District Office, it started out with the idea that the whole matter was entirely up to the men. The men are not required to take any course if they do not want it. If a man wants to get the most good out of the course, it is up to him to read the course carefully. It seems to me that an examination would be extra bother and superfluous, although there may be no way of getting around it in accordance with instructions.

J. D. Guthrie: Would a man be as apt to read the course as carefully if there were no examination?

A. Leopold: Suggested leaving it to the men, as a man might find out that the course would not be of much value to him.

J. D. Guthrie: On the other hand, how could a man tell whether the course is going to be a benefit to him or not unless he read it?

A. Leopold: A man could tell by just skimming the course over. A man could tell within an hour or so if the course is going to be what he wants.

W. P. Lawson: Would there be any credit or discredit on account of the examination?

J. D. Guthrie: It does not have any effect on a man's standing in the Service.

Leopold: Is there any course in the set of readings which is so extremely specialized that a person having a line in the opposite could not understand it, or could not get anything out of it? Would it be possible for him to get a course in silvics, etc.?

J. D. Guthrie: Yes. - Of course some men are going to get more out of a course than others, but the time spent on courses outside of a man's particular line is not time lost.

D. C. M. Thinks it advisable to have an examination because Forest Service men are supposed to have more knowledge about things pertaining to forestry than those not in the Forest Service, and for that reason it would be an advantage to have a knowledge of all lines of Forest Service work.

J. C. W.: Thinks it would be well to have an examination, as it would be no more than right to find out what a Ranger knows.

W. C. M.: Thinks an examination should be held, if it is the idea to find out how much a man knows about the reading course.

Vote taken as to whether an examination should be held: AL - no; DCM - no; WCM - no; HOE - yes:; JCW - yes; JHS - no; GBC - As a qualified matter it would be advisable to hold an examination; JHH - no; JR - yes; WPL - yes; REM - yes; RTG - yes.

Uniforms. - The next subject taken up was that in regard to uniforms. The men were asked if they had any criticisms to make in regard to the wearing quality of the goods or the fit of the suits.

JCW: Always to a perfect fit, but the goods were absolutely worthless; would not stand rough usage. JHS: Thought it was the other way round. JCW: Has been getting 13 and 22 oz. goods. Thinks price pretty high. DCM: Found the suits to be O.K. except when worn in brushy country. AL: Extremely satisfactory, except for the fit. The point is whether we expect to get some kind of goods that is going to stand the roughest kind of wear, and high in price, or whether we want a uniform that we can wear only in office work and when we come to town, and pay a comparatively small price for it. Ought to put more wool in the shirts and charge a little more. JCW: Says trousers wear slick and look more or less like a spotted cow. HOE: Thinks the uniforms, or the goods in them, are satisfactory for this part of the country (northern part of the Apache.) JHS: Thinks they look all right. GBC: For the price they are all right and look all right. J.D. Guthrie: Stated that from his experience with the shirts they are the best one can get for the money.

Blankets. - J.D. Guthrie: Last fall we started a plan looking towards ordering Forest Service Blankets. The majority of the men agreed to take a certain number, but the whole thing fell through because the Company refused to furnish the blankets COD when it was taken up with them by Supervisor MacKay of the Sitgreaves.

The question was asked if the men wanted to take the matter up again. They decided that they did, and the number each man wanted was gotten.

Accounts. - Mr. Guthrie opened the discussion of accounts by saying all accounts are now handled directly by the Auditor in the Agricultural Department. This means the Forest Service accounts are handled by a set of men who are [not] in the Forest Service at all. The Fiscal Regulations of course govern all accounts as formerly. They are getting very particular about accounts and must be handled in accordance with the Fiscal Regulations. A supply of Fiscal Regulations will be sent out to the different men. In regard to the question of supplying Rangers with samples of different accounts, this has been done to a certain extent. A new set of forms up to date will be sent out and when there is a change a new form will be sent out. Vouchers covering supplies, etc., do not give the unit price. The signature should be written exactly as it appears on heading of voucher. Names on the Pay Roll, for instance, must be written identically the same as they appear on the appointment papers.

The following questions in regard to accounts were asked: DCM: A man has horse feed and lodging on one subvoucher, how should he divide it? JDG: Put the horse fee and lodging on separate vouchers. Mr. Guthrie continued, a man who is hired for a short period should not be asked to sign a form A and wait for his pay when the amount is less than $10.00. You can take a receipt or a form 4A, send it in here, and I can pay the man with a personal check. Any payment on subvoucher for more than $10 should have the statement on it, "Cash payment demanded." Asking a man to wait three or four weeks for an amount as small as $10 makes it hard to get labor and also makes the people who work for the Government think they should be paid more on account of the long delay in getting paid. DCM: Where it is necessary to make a new corrected voucher, can only one notary fee be charged? JDG: Submit both notary fees on the last voucher, though it is very doubtful if both would be paid.

Forage Allotment. - The subject of forage allotment was discussed. J. D. Guthrie: This year the forage allotment money can be used for putting in agricultural crops at stations, cultivating them and harvesting them. It applies to all Forest Officers who are required to keep horses. (Answering J. C. Wheatley's question - it was decided that repairs to irrigating ditches should be charged to improvements.)

The instructions of the Forester in regard to allotments were read by Mr. Guthrie and discussed. - This year $500 has been authorized for the Apache. Then situation will be a little better than last year as more grain and hay is being raised at some of the Ranger stations.

The question of how many horses a man actually needs was brought up. It was agreed that it varies according to what district a man is on and what class of work he has to do. DCM: Uses two and feeds grain and they are now broke down. Thinks it is better to keep four in the summer than to keep two and feed grain. JCW: During the summer, needs at least eight horses; during the winter, three. WCM: Two during winter and four during summer on grass. HOE: Five in summer time and two during winter. JHS: Eight or ten during summer and four during the winter. GBC: Five during the summer and three during the winter. JHH: Uses two during the summer, but a man should have at least six. JR: Five during summer; three during winter.

The question of how much it costs to feed a horse was asked. DCM: Costs $250 to feed a horse a year. JCW: $272.50 for three horses. WCM: $50 per head. HOE: $85 for two horses. JHS: $125 to half-feed four. GBC: Average for three horses, $190. AL: $120 for one horse. JCW: Would money spent for irrigating and harvesting grain be counted in the $75 that an officer must spend from his personal funds? Guthrie: It would.

The District Forester arrived from Albuquerque to attend the meeting.

Meeting adjourned at 4:05.

Friday, September 9, 1910.

Meeting opened at 9:30 a.m. Those present were District Forester Ringland, R. E. Marsh, Aldo Leopold, W. P. Lawson, R. T. Gheen, Claud McDowell, James Reagan, H. O. Eaton, J. H. Hinck, G. B. Chapin, J. H. Sizer, G. B. Rencher, W. C. Martin, J. I. Pritchard, W. O. Wheatley, J. C. Wheatley, F. H. Mitchell, H. L. Nichols, D. C. Guthrie, and Frederic Winn.

Reading Course. - This subject was again discussed. Question: Should an examination be held? WCW: Yes. Have an examination at Ranger Meeting and set aside half a day for it. JIP: Thinks it a good plan to have an examination. FHM: Believes an examination should be held, but thinks an oral examination is better than a written one.

The District Forester gave a brief talk on the importance of the reading courses. A discussion followed as to whether an oral or written examination should be held. WPL: Suggested that a combination examination be given, which suggestion was adopted, and it was decided to first have a written examination about a month before the Ranger Meeting and an oral examination at the meeting. Mr. Ringland stated that an examination would be the best way of maintaining interest and stimulating an interest in technical knowledge. Mr. Ringland also stated that an examination would be held with the understanding that it does not prejudice a man's standing in any way.

Vote taken as to whether an examination should be held; 15 in favor of holding examination. Mr. Ringland suggested that criticisms be made if the courses were not just what the men wanted. Suggested that a committee of three be appointed to work out details of the work. The work of the committee would be to see what each man wanted and in that way properly distribute the reading courses. Mr. Ringland also suggested that Saturday afternoon be set aside as a study time.

Uniforms - The question of uniforms was again taken up. Mr. Guthrie asked those present what criticisms they had to make in regard to the fit and wearing qualities of the uniforms. JLP: Goods satisfactory, but fit decidedly wrong. Shirts O.K. FHM: Goods too hot. Light weight goods not stout enough. Vote taken as to whether uniform should be used. All in favor of having uniforms. Mr. Guthrie suggested that since everybody was in favor of having uniforms, everybody should get them. HOE: Suggested that a representative of the company be sent out to take the measurements of all officers and file them with his firm for future use. AL: Suggested that all men present have Mr. E.R. Patterson of the Becker Merc. Co. take their measurements and have duplicate copies made, giving one to each man, which measurements should be used in future orders.

Mr. Ringland made the suggestion that since a coat is hardly ever worn, a gray shirt with a green tree embroidered on the points of the collar be used as a suitable kind of simple insignia. No action taken on this suggestion. AL: Thinks for all kinds of work, uniforms are not satisfactory.

It was suggested that overalls of the same color as that of the uniforms be used when the work is too rough for uniforms. The question was brought up as to whether a coat or jumper should be worn with the overalls. DCM: In favor of a coat with plenty of pockets.

The question was put to a vote; all in favor of coat except two.

The question whether wearing of uniforms should be compulsory was next voted upon. All in favor of having the wearing of uniforms while on duty compulsory, effective January 1, 1911, with the exception of DCM and WOW, the uniform to consist of coat, trousers, and shirt.

This subject was discussed briefly.

Mr. Guthrie stated that the average Ranger's diary is too brief and too cut and dried. Men never enter any discussion with a Forest user; judging from diary never meet anybody on the road, or never discuss with them Forest Service business. Best plan is to keep record in black notebooks and write on both sides of each page.

Monthly Service Reports & Promise Card System. - In the discussion of Service Reports the question of what work should a man charge to miscellaneous executive duties, improvement, etc., was explained by Mr. Guthrie.

In the discussion of the above subject each man was requested to give his method of keeping track of appointments. WOW: Used a desk calendar. WCM: Used his notebook. FHM: Dates his notebook and puts each appointment down on its particular date. JIP: Uses desk calendar and first leaf in notebook, and trusts some things to his memory. He also uses wall calendar, jotting down two or three words in space around figures. Mr. Ringland thinks note of all appointments should be made as changes on a Ranger District often take place and a new man should have some record of the appointments to be filled. Mr. Ringland also thinks Rangers knowledge is too personal, i.e., they don't impart their knowledge in regard to certain things which they learn while on their district, to other forest officers, or make it a matter of record for their successor. WCM: Uses notebook. JHS: Trusts his memory. GBC: Has an attention box in which he puts all matters needing immediate attention, and when going into the field or away from his station takes the contents of this box in his carrying case so he can refer to it. He also uses the desk calendar. HOE: Uses first leaf in notebook. Is away from Ranger Station four or five days at a time and therefore cannot use desk calendar.

Rangers' Plans of Work - JCW: (Q) How many men can follow out their monthly card plan of work? A discussion of the card plan of work, ensuing month, followed this question. MLN: Thinks plan of work is all right, but does not think it practicable to have dates as no ranger is certain of what he may be required to do. The following question was put to a vote: How many think the monthly plan of work is a good thing? Twelve in favor of using card system of plans for future work; two opposed: JHS and JLP. JLP: Objection is that it does not do anybody any good. Thinks that when a man is on his District he should plan out what things are needed to be done to improve his district and the plan of work should be made out for three months, six months, or even a whole year. Mr. Ringland suggested that a routine plan of work and a constructive plan of work be put into effect. AL: Thinks the men do not put enough time on new work and their time is entirely taken up with routine work. Mr. Ringland thinks an annual working plan should be submitted each year. JHS: Agrees with Pritchard: that yellow card is useless, as a man cannot follow his plan. Suggested that a man make a record of what improvements are needed as the work presents itself. The question whether a three-months or six-months plan of work should be adopted was voted upon. It was decided to submit a three months plan beginning October 1, for October, November and December; plans not to include routine.

Planting - Seed Collecting - The subject of seed collecting was next taken up. Mr. Ringland stated that he wanted to get Engelmann spruce and red fir seed. Thinks 75 cents per bushel a reasonable price for cones. Suggested that small parties of Mexicans be organized to collect seed. He spoke of a hook, on the plan of a pitchfork, which had been invented for raking cones off the trees. Mr. Ringland talked at some length on the importance of gathering all the seed possible. He suggested that the seed gathered this fall be dried during the winter and sowed next year during the rainy season. Requested the men to be frank if they were not certain as to the seed crop on their district. HOE: Not much at the Apache Lumber Co.'s Mill, nor at Patterson's mill. WCM: Yellow pine poor on his district. GBC: Very little yellow pine seed. Cones mostly in tops of trees which shows that it is a poor crop. JCW: Crop light. GBC: Plenty of pinon.

Forest Fire Fighting - Fire Tools - Question of fire tools was discussed. JCW: Thinks Asphalt rakes are entirely too heavy. Hard to work among young seedlings. Recommends garden rakes with long handles. HOE: A rake of the same quality as that of the Asphaltum rake, but small. GBC: Suggested having a rake with a cuff like a hoe, without handles; handles to be cut and inserted in cuff after reaching fire. Could pack more rakes on a horse if they had no handles. Mr. Ringland spoke of an arrangement, used by a Forest Supervisor in Oklahoma, of putting fires out by water, the water being packed to the fire in canvas bags. The Rangers on the Apache did not think such an arrangement would work in putting out fires which occur on this Forest. GBC: Chapin's suggestion of having rakes without handles and provided with a cuff similar to a hoe, was approved by several other rangers. Mr. Guthrie suggested the proposed plan of a series of tool boxes to be distributed over the forest. FHM Gave description of a rake similar to the one which Mr. Chapin suggested, which had two screws to fasten in the handle, the cuff being split up the sides. Used by a Mexican on the Clifton District.

It was stated that tool boxes could be made out of logs or shakes for $15.00.

Mr. Ringland inquired if it would be worthwhile to have the Property Clerk furnish pack saddles to the Rangers, to be used especially in fighting fire and to be kept in the tool boxes. Was not taken favorably by the Rangers. FHM: Thinks it would be unnecessary if fire boxes were provided.

It was suggested that tool boxes be supplied with chuck, in a locked chest. GBR: Suggested that the tool boxes be supplied with a cooking outfit. JIP: Did not think it advisable to keep chuck and tools in boxes on the forest as they would be stolen. After some discussion it was decided that chuck would be kept in tool boxes only for a month or so. Suggestion made that all tools and supplies be marked with "U.S.". HOE: Says fire tool boxes are needed on top of the White Mountains. JHS: As a general proposition, thought that the fire boxes would be a pretty good thing. Tools more important than chuck; could kill a cow for food. GBR: Is in favor of having chuck stored on some parts of the Forest. JCW: Thinks shovels more important than rakes in fighting fires. HOE and several others are in favor of short-handled shovels. HOE: Thinks hoe should be in fire-box outfit. It was suggested that crosscut saws be included in outfit also.

Mr. Ringland suggested the use of dynamite for fighting fire as it had been used to good advantage in the Northwest this season.

Vote taken as to those in favor of fire-tool boxes. Ten in favor of providing chuck in fire boxes. It was agreed that canteens, S.W. water bags, 6 hoes, 6 rakes, 6 shovels, 6 axes, and 2 crosscut saws be put in fire boxes.

Question of bedding being provided in boxes was brought up; nothing definite decided upon.

JDG: Suggested that a temporary laborer be put on duty in certain parts of the Forest subject to fires, to work on trails when no fires. WOW: Suggested that instead of having would-be cowpuncher hired at $2.50 per day, hire Mexicans who would work for $30 per month and be satisfied with much cheaper food. It was stated that we would always have fires as long as we paid $2.50 per day for fighting fire. It was suggested that each Ranger have five Mexicans for fire patrol, about 45 days each year. JCW: Could work them on his District. JHS: Could not on the Eagle District, as he would not have Mexicans work for him.

The question of permittees supplying chuck at fires was brought up. Mr. Guthrie stated that a supply of chuck should be stored at the fire boxes as it would be cheaper in the end, and permittees are rather touchy about supplying chuck when they are delayed in getting pay for it.

The question of how much labor could be expected of each permittee was discussed. Mr. Guthrie thinks some scheme should he figured out in which a man would work according to the number of head of stock he had a permit for. FHM: Thought a permittee should work two days for every 100 head of stock. JCW: Two days for every 100 head of stock. Mr. Ringland suggested that each permittee be required to work according to the value of his permit; figuring that his time was worth $2.00 per day. For example, if a permittee was paying grazing fees of $30, he would be required to work 15 days. GBR: Stated that small permittees gave the most help in fire fighting. WCM: Agreed with Rencher as to this. Said it was hard to get the large permittees as he did not always know where they were. GBC: Thinks a nominal price of $1.00 per day should be paid the permittees for fighting fire, as they would be more satisfied to stay with the fire if they were paid something. FHM: Thinks a permittee should not work according to the number of stock he had on the Forest, but should stay with the fire until it is out. Thinks a man should be paid for packing chuck to fire, and that all chuck should be furnished free.

Mr. Ringland inquired if we had any trouble with men about waiting for their pay. Mr. Guthrie stated that there had been some trouble of this kind this season in paying for labor, but no trouble as to paying for hire of horses and buying of chuck. JIP: Thinks a man should stay with a fire until it is out and should not be paid even though it is off his own range. MLN: Agreed that permittees should fight fires until they are out and also agreed that the Forest Service should stand for the chuck and the packing of it. FHM (Q): If a man refused to go to a fire, what could you do? JDG: Could do nothing, except refuse to grant him a permit the following year, or cancel any S.U. permit he held. WOW: Thinks if a man is asked to go to a fire, he must go. JIP Thinks a Ranger should go to the nearest man for help. Mr. Ringland suggested fixing the distances from the lines of each man's allotment or range. FHM: Still maintained that he thought it was up to every man to fight a fire until it was out. JIP: Thinks if men were required to go a certain number of miles from his allotment, there would be a long discussion with some of the permittees as to the exact distance to the fire. JCW: Mentioned the fact that he had trouble this summer in getting men to fight fire. MLN: Suggested that clause be inserted in grazing permit as regards fire fighting. Mr. Ringland suggested a change in present clause in application for grazing permit. MLN: Thinks the nearest man should go to the fire first and if it is very large, to call on men farther away. JHS: Thinks all permittees should be required to fight fire. MLN: Thinks a man with a considerable bunch of cattle should spend at least the same length of time, in proportion, as a man with a small bunch of stock.

Mr. Ringland read clause (revised) to be inserted in application for grazing permit. In part, as follows ... "To render all reasonable aid in extinguishing forest fires within the locality in which the stock is grazed, both independently and upon request of the Forest Officers." The word, 'district' was changed to 'locality.' There was a short discussion as to what the word 'reasonable' signified.

Vote taken as to those in favor of substituting the above clause for the present one. All in favor.

JCW: Thinks permittees fight fire better than paid fire fighters.

In regard to fire trespass, the Wilcox case on Bear Wallow was brought up.

Mr. Ringland thought it would be well to gather all the information possible and to put it up to the District Forester's office.

AL: Stated that difficulty in getting fire fighters was on account of rich fellows coming in and setting fires and burning up the country and not giving aid in putting them out. MLN: Said the Wilcox party had a Mexican cook who had been reprimanded severely a few days before their camp burned, for leaving the camp fire. Mr. Guthrie (Q): Could we require permits for campers? Mr. Ringland does not think we could.

Game Protection. - This subject was discussed. (Q) Do all the men want to be game wardens? WOW: Does not think it would be of any use as it was impossible to get a jury to convict. FJM: Gave several cases where men were found guilty of violating the game laws but no jury would convict them. JCW: Is strongly in favor of game laws if they can he enforced. MLN: Does not think it would be of any particular benefit. AL: Thinks that unless a man is interested enough in the subject to care anything about game protection, that he ought not have a commission ... It is a shame the way things are going on this Forest ... creates disrespect in not being able to enforce the game laws. Stated that in several cases if he had had a commission he could have arrested several parties violating the game laws. WOW: Justice of Peace told him that a Ranger has got to see a man kill the game before he can be convicted. AL: Thinks this is not the time to get discouraged in regard to the condition of things. This is a new country and it takes time to get the people to see the benefit of game laws. Suggested arresting the rich tourists first, thus arousing the sympathy of the people. Thinks if the thing is managed right and judgment used in making arrests, some of the difficulties which we now have to contend with may be overcome. FHM: Was highly in favor of Leopold's views on the subject. GBR: Suggested that each hunter be required to produce a license when asked to do so. GBC: Thinks all Rangers should have a commission. Could have used one this summer. FHM: Suggested putting restrictions on the kind of gun a man is allowed to use in hunting. Vote taken as to those in favor of having a commission. All in favor.

There was a short discussion as to whether anybody could arrest an Indian off the reservation.

Meeting closed at 6 p.m.

Saturday. September 10, 1911

Meeting opened at 9:30 a.m. Those present were R. T. Gheen, R. E. Marsh, W. P. Lawson, Claud McDowell, J. H. Hinck, J. H. Sizer, W. C. Martin, G. B. Chapin, H. O. Eaton, D. B. Rudd, Aldo Leopold, B. S. Rogers, M. L. Nichols, J. C. Wheatley, G. B. Rencher, James Reagon, F. H. Mitchell, J. L. Pritchard, W. O. Wheatley, Frederic Winn, J. D. Guthrie. The District Forester found it necessary to return to Albuquerque.

Reconnaissance. - Meeting opened by Leopold giving a talk on the Reconnaissance work. He went very much into detail, showing very clearly the nature of reconnaissance work and how each particular feature of the work was done. In part, as follows: Reconnaissance work consists of making an estimate of all timber and making a map of the country as we go over it to estimate the timber ... The method is rough. It consists of going once through each 40-acre subdivision and making an estimate of the timber in that 40 acres, and this estimate is arrived at by taking sample acres as one goes through the forty and estimating, or counting all the timber on those acres ... In surveyed ground, the method is to start from one of the section corners. The forties are gone through by tiers. The territory covered in this way every day varies from one to two sections. A man is generally allowed sections in a string two or three miles long, which enables him to cover more ground in a day than if he was assigned but one section. The maps made in the field are of course just a rough sketch. They include the location of all streams, trails, roads, timber lines, fences, etc..., and the topography is put in by contours ... In speaking of surveys, I would like to bring up the importance of keeping the surveys on the Forest in shape. The surveys in many places are very old, and I think there is a big danger of the corners established becoming obliterated, and you will therefore agree that it is a mighty important question, that of freshening up the corners that have been set, by replacing them and keeping rock piles in shape. On the Greer District they are in excellent shape. Area covered by reconnaissance last year was 65,000 acres. Area covered to date, 170,000 acres; 200,000 acres remaining uncovered. Cost of the work last year was 4 cents per acre, this year, 1-2/3 cents, and at the rate we are going, by the time the work is finished, the cost of the work may be reduced to 1-1/2 cents.

Figure 28. Timber reconnaissance party in camp on the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest, July 26, 1910. Left to right: Lonnie Prammel, R. E. Marsh, H. H. Greenmayer, J. H. Allison, C. W. McKibbin, G. H. Collingwood, R. E. Hopson, H. B. Wales, J. W. Hough, Aldo Leopold, and John D. Guthrie.

Mr. Leopold also spoke about the fine crew of men he had working for him this summer. They were Yale and Michigan men, some graduates. He said, "By the reconnaissance system, a green man can do surprisingly accurate cruising." He explained the method of drilling the men to do accurate pacing, and told his plans for the work to be done this fall. He spoke of the necessity of the Forest Officers giving names to the different features on the maps, after they had been completed by the Reconnaissance men. Spoke of there being valuable pulp wood in some parts of the mountains. Showed how difficult it was to estimate aspen when mixed with spruce.

Mr. Guthrie gave a brief talk on the plan of having a Ranger detailed to Reconnaissance work, giving reason for not having been able to do so, and stating that the plan had not been dropped by any means: unable to follow out as planned since regular work on Districts kept Ranger busy.

Timber Sales - Cordwood. - Timber sales discussed. First question taken up was cordwood sales on the south end, whether we have anything there to sell or not. FHM: Very little left to be sold. Last year 60% of the sales were dead stumps and in taking these they were dug out of the ground leaving holes. During heavy rains these holes form large pools which run over the slopes doing damage to the ground by causing washes. The number of timber sales now on the Clifton District is 12.

Discussion in regard to cost of timber sales and cordwood sales. FHM: Too much time charged to cordwood sales. As, for instance, the time spent in keeping the Mexicans from stealing the wood is charged to that item. JDG: We get more out of timber sales than cordwood sales though timber sales cost less. FHM: Says Mexicans like time limit best in buying cordwood, even though they do not have time to get all they pay for. JDG: Stated that cordwood sales cost us 60 cents to handle while we only get 50 cents per M. ft. B.M. JIP: Conditions on his District (Metcalf) are the same as described on the Clifton District. Some cordwood left, but it is needed for protection of the soil. Thinks that according to Mr. Guthrie's statement, we are paying for the destruction of the Forest and forage. Does not think we ought to allow free use to the Mexicans on the south end. DBR: Thinks sales ought to be cut out, but that they ought to be cut out gradually on account of the poor people. Thinks we can finally cut the sales out altogether, and that the people can get better bargains from the lumber yards and dealers. WOW: Gave several instances where Mexicans were going to drop out of the cordwood business. FHM: Thinks they ought not to make another sale on the south end. Had two men offer to buy 200 cords at a shot after he said he was going to stop selling cordwood. Proposed posting notices that cordwood sales would be stopped. Mr. Guthrie stated that he had planned the first of August to cut down sales by not making them for less than 50 cords each, and to make as few as possible, and then on the first of October, or even before, have notices published and put up in conspicuous places, notifying the public that after January 1 no cordwood sales would be made there at all. Steavens says he will put up a yard in Metcalf and have enough wood to supply Metcalf for a year if necessary. He charges $9.00 a cord. Mexicans want $10 and $11 for 8 burro loads, which will average about 5/8 of a cord. It was thought that the people on the south end could get their wood cheaper if the cordwood sales were stopped. Coal is $18 per ton and 50% cheaper to burn than wood. Mr. Guthrie believed it was largely up to the Companies in Clifton to furnish fuel to their employees and it would be necessary for them to bring it in.

Discussion as to the profit made by the men dealing in cordwood.

DBR: Does not think three months' notice is time enough in which to bring the cordwood sales to a close. Later agreed that three months would be sufficient if the lumbermen would guarantee to supply the demand.

It was stated that there would be half a dozen men go into the wood yard business as soon as they find out that the cordwood sales are to be cut out by the Forest Service. JIP: Stated that they can get coal and wood in Metcalf in 30 days to supply the demand.

It was agreed that the Companies in Clifton would get in fuel for their employees and that no hardship would be worked on the people.

FHM: Believes there ought not to be another stick sold on the Clifton District. Says people understand that cordwood sales are to be cut out at the end of the year, and for that reason they are stacking up in their yards waiting for higher prices. Thought by the close of the year all the contracts would be closed. Did not think we would have much trouble with Mexican trespass.

Instructions were given in regard to the handling of timber trespasses.

MLN: Says it is understood by the people that no more cordwood sales will he made on the south end.

Discussion as to whether we should cut out free use entirely on the south end. DBR: Says burro men would steal wood while getting free use. JIP: Thinks if we furnish free use to the people in Clifton we would be furnishing it to the mining company, and not to settlers. Thinks if a man did get free use he would sell it. FHM: Free use should be cut out with the wood men. Inconsistent to cut out cordwood sales and then grant free use. MLN: Thought it might work a hardship on some widows. FHM: Believed it wouldn't as he knew them too well.

Morning session closed at 12 M. Afternoon session opened at 1:30 p.m.

Mr. Guthrie notified the men that Mr. Becker would give a watermelon feast tonight or tomorrow night for all Forest officers.

Free Use. - The practicability of cutting out free use saw-timber was brought up for discussion. DCM: Thought it would be economy to cut out free use saw-timber. FHM: Inquired if a man gained anything by having a free use permit for saw timber, after taking into consideration the time spent for logging, brush piling, etc. GBR: Says an experienced man can save $4.00 a thousand by having a free use permit. GBC: (Q) Do you know how Patterson feels about it? GBR: Patterson says he would just as soon saw free use, but it doesn't make much difference. DBR: On account of there not being very many sawmills in the country, people cannot use much saw-timber, except that near sawmills and therefore it would be a good plan to cut free use out and let the people buy what lumber they needed from the sawmills. By not being required to look after free use cutting areas and sales, there would be a great deal of time saved. JIP: Thinks free use for saw-timber should be cut out. Mr. Guthrie stated there is very little hold on a free use permittee, as after he had had his timber run through the mill, it is hard to make him go back and pile the brush. GBC: Says there is much time lost through free use timber, on account of the people failing to take the timber after it has been marked for them. J. D. Guthrie: "Under the present regulations we can grant free use for $20 worth of saw-timber, provided a man does his own logging. It is simply a set of rules and regulations, which, if complied with, a man can get $20 worth of saw-timber; if he does not care to comply with the requirements he is entitled to nothing. They are very liberal with June 11 claims. A man can secure more than $20 worth, provided of course he uses all of it on his claim." FHM: Suggested that all saw-timber, dead or green, be handled by one man. JIP: Thinks Rangers should not be bothered with free use but that it should be handled in the Supervisor's office. JDG: Does not agree with him.

There was a discussion relative to some men getting more free use than they are entitled to during the year. FHM: Thinks a Ranger can very easily ask the permittee if he has had other permits that year or not. If he does not tell the truth in regard to the matter, a good plan would be to cut out his free use privileges altogether. AL: Spoke of the system of recording a man's statement on the margin of his permit. Discussion as to the number of free use permits a man should be allowed each year. It was decided that it would be best to cut out free use permits for dead material entirely, or grant a blanket permit covering an entire year. Discussion as to whether blanket permit should cover both dead and green timber. JIP: Did not see why the people could not have all the timber they want without a permit, if the office does not want statistics. DCM: Thinks every dead stick of timber should be removed from the Forest. GBR: Thinks it would cut down the use of green timber if we grant all the dead timber that people want. DBR: It looks to him that since there is so very little demand for green timber, the people should be allowed to use what little timber they want. Thinks that if a man is allowed all the dead timber he can use and is required to take out a permit for green timber, before he will go to the trouble of looking up a Ranger to get the permit and have the Ranger look up the timber he wants and mark it, he will use dead timber. AL: Thought that by abolishing permits for dead material, all the easy and accessible places are going to be cleaned out of their best stuff and within a couple of years we will only have the poor material left, and even that would get more and more remote.

It was stated that all this material would be used for improvement work and would not be going out of the forest. AL: Thought that new settlers would hesitate to come on the Forest if they saw all the free use material was gone. — Thinks timber is growing faster than it can be used.

It was stated that the greatest objection to the blanket permit would be in submitting a report showing how much timber had been cut.

A vote was taken as to abolishing all free use for green saw-timber. All in favor.

A vote was taken as to those in favor of doing away with free use permits for dead material, if possible. All in favor.

If it was not possible to do so, all were in favor of granting blanket permits for a year, for $20 worth of whatever dead material a man needed, but limit the green material to $10 worth, to be covered by separate permit.

There was some discussion as to whether a man should have a blanket permit for all he needs. or have a limited amount. AL: Brought up the point of allowing the use of dead material on burned areas without restriction. JDG: (Q) Do you all agree that some definite amount should be put into this blanket permit? Shall we grant blanket permit for one year covering $50 worth of dead material and $20 worth of green material, with the understanding that all green timber be marked? JIP: Does not like green timber being in blanket permit. Says it would encourage the use of green timber. WOW: Does not think the use of a blanket permit would cut down the routine, but that it would be worse. JHS: (Q) What is the dead timber to be valued at — same as green timber? Do not think that is right. JDG: Stated that dead timber is better for posts and better for fuel. JHS: Thinks he would have trouble on his District if green timber is valued at the same price as dead timber, for a man would want the green timber if he is to be allowed a certain amount. Thought that the valuation of dead material should be half of that of green timber, and that blanket permit should be for $25.00 instead of $50.

A few minutes before the close of the session Mr. Guthrie talked on the subject of free use reports, saying that in some cases the reports submitted did not check. He also dwelt a few minutes on the importance of Rangers instructing new men under them in regard to the granting of free use.

Sunday, September 11, 1910

In the morning a shooting match took place between the Forest Officers at the meeting. The match was held near Becker's Lake. The contests consisted of rifle and revolver shooting, the rifle at 250 ft. and the revolver at 100 ft., each man having three trials with each kind of gun at a target, the successful man being the one who ran up the highest combined score. As a result of the shoot, Ranger Pritchard tied with Guard Lawson. It was decided that the tie should be shot off on Monday morning, which was done, giving Pritchard an easy victory. The prize, a bridle with heavy silver conchos and buckles, accordingly went to Pritchard.

Sunday afternoon a baseball game was played between the Forest officers and a picked team from Springerville and Eager, which resulted in a victory for the Foresters by a score of 13 to 11.

Monday, September 12, 1910

Meeting opened at 10 a.m. Those present were J. D. Guthrie, Frederic Winn, R. T. Gheen, G. B. Rencher, W. C. Martin, J. H. Hinck, James Reagan, R. E. Hopson, G. B. Chapin, J. W. Hough, R. E. Marsh, Aldo Leopold, B. S. Rogers, J. C. Wheatley, F. H. Mitchell, C. H. Collingwood, H. S. Wales, G. W. LeKibben [probably a misprint for C. W. McKibben], H. O. Eaton, M. L. Nichols, J. H. Sizer, J. I. Pritchard, D. C. Martin, T. Wells, D. B. Rudd.

Timber Sales. Saw-timber - Timber sales on the north end taken up for discussion. Mr. Eaton gave a brief talk on the sales on his District. He stated that the sales are quite numerous, there being two sawmills and two shingle mills. Thinks it is a wrong proposition that the shingle mills should be allowed to make shingles only. If sawmill and shingle mill would combine, a lot of material that goes to waste would be utilized. He stated that the shingle mills are now hauling in tops and other unmerchantable timber, with the idea of making some proposition with the sawmill people to use it. He spoke of the mill people complaining that they were not getting full value on account of the large amount of rot. Eaton claimed that they were getting an over-scale. FHM: Thought complaint of mill people could be overcome by allowing them to pick their trees and have them pay higher rate. MOE: Said they were willing to do this, but he informed them that he thought the office would not agree to it. Thought it would not be good for the Forest as it would take out all the good trees.

A few minutes were spent in discussing brush disposal. WOW: Says brush would have rotted quicker on his district if it had been scattered. JDG: Stated that scattering is going to be a great deal harder to get properly done than piling. HOE: Said the people think scattering means leaving the limbs just where they fall. TW: Said that Pearson's method is to clip off the branches so that the brush lies flat and close to the ground.

Mr. Wells changed the subject with the following question: What about the dead tree proposition? He stated that on the Coconino they tried to get dead trees cut down free, as it was an advantage to the Forest account of the trees being one of the worst obstacles in fighting fire. One objection the people had to cutting dead trees was that it dulled their saws. JDG: Stated that this requirement has been used on Apache for some time. HOE: Thinks it a good thing to take the question up on this Forest. TW: Says Woolsey favors making a reduced charge, but does not favor having free of charge trees that are merchantable. Stated that Johnson thinks it would be a good idea to cut them down free of charge. JDG: Stated that Woolsey did not think we ought to give the dead timber away; thought we ought to charge at least 5 cents a cord on south end. GBC: Says that on his district there are a couple of patches of this bug-killed material, which he thinks ought to be gotten rid of. Trees are dead and worm-eaten. JDG: Stated, in that case, encourage every possible use of it by free use or otherwise. GBC: The patches are isolated. WOW: Does not think it would have a tendency to exterminate the beetle by the use of the dead stuff on the forest. JDG: Says it does.

Subject changed to Mr. Greenamyre's work in studying the Composite Type of forest. Mr. Guthrie: Forest Assistant Greenamyre of the Coconino Experimental station is doing some work on the Forest this year, making a study of a certain type, the Composite Type which, I understand from Mr. Pearson is quite an unusual type for this district. The work is quite important and Mr. Greenamyre will be here this year and probably next year.

Mr. Leopold gave a brief talk on Mr. Greenamyre's work.

Salting - This subject was discussed. BSR: Thinks it should be left to the stockmen where the salting grounds are to be located. JCW: Thinks a man ought to use his own judgment as long as the range is in good shape. JIP: Says stock do not drift very far on his district. Hopper's drift some and Paddocks some. Says if stockmen do not salt enough, they are the losers. Most of them on his district (Metcalf) think ten pounds is too much. BSR: Says more salt is required on top of the mountains than down below. JIP: Says salt is kept on the salt grounds all the time and does not see why it would be justice to the stockmen to require them to put out salt when it is not required. DBR: Does not think people ought to be required to put out salt where there is no need of it. Thinks the amount of salt now required to be put out is satisfactory, but the amount is small enough. Thinks people ought to put out according to how much the cattle use, that a rough and rocky place should be picked out for the salting grounds. GBC: Says there is always a kick more or less about salting. For instance we have been speaking of a man being permitted to put salt where he wants to. Some want to salt near home, as they claim the cattle drift home if they do so. HOE: Says big stockmen put out more salt than required. Small stockmen are rather backward in putting out the required amount.

Discussion in regard to picking out salt grounds and protecting them from sheep: Peterson's sheep and Barrett's cattle. HOE: Stated, one thing in favor of the cattlemen's argument is that they cannot herd cattle. The sheepmen however herd their sheep on the cattlemen's salt grounds. Thinks they should be given some good area which should be posted. JCW: Thinks it best to give cowmen a grazing district and sheepmen a grazing district, not have both on same area. JDG & HOE: Do not agree with Wheatley as to that; impossible and impracticable. DBR: Thinks the sheepmen ought to keep off the cattlemen's salt grounds. JDG: (Q) Do you think it would be practicable to lay out small excluded areas for salt grounds? HOE: Thinks it is a good idea. GBC: Thinks cattlemen should have established salt grounds, have it so understood, and have the sheepmen keep off of them. GBR: Thinks sheepmen should have the privilege of picking their lambing grounds and have cattle keep off of them, as it is very important that they have good lambing grounds and they are very scarce. FHM: Thinks there would be considerable kicking if special salt grounds were established, as it would cut out considerable grazing land. GBR: Says there would be very little trouble if salt grounds were located on edge of allotment, but if they were located in the center of some man's allotment, there would be trouble. JLP: Thinks if they have pool salt grounds, half a dozen would be sufficient. FHM: Thinks if we have many salt grounds there will be more of a tendency for the cattle to drift. WOW: Thinks if we did get pool system working a grazing inspector would come along and stop it, claiming that it was killing off the turf. DBR: Thinks a small area is better for a salt ground, as it would he easier to get around it. Thinks if the salt ground covered a large area as recommended there would be more of a tendency to encroach. JIP: Thinks trouble is more imaginary than anything else, relative to sheepmen getting on cattlemen's salt grounds. HOE: Suggested that the question be left to the Ranger.

A vote taken as to those in favor of laying out definite areas for salt grounds and making excluded areas of them, on sheep allotments. All in favor except HOE and WCM.

DBR: Recommended that salt grounds be posted.

Vote taken as to whether we should leave the entire matter to the discretion of the Forest officer on the ground, i.e.. laying out definite areas for salting grounds in sheep allotments. All in favor. JHS: Says very little salt is being put out on his district. He has been unable to get any receipts for salt, has trouble with small stockmen. BSR: Believes salting grounds should not be fences, as was suggested by someone present. JDG: Stated. "You should make it a rule to see that every person puts out enough salt for every head of stock he has got." (Q) Mow can we make the system any more effective? JHS: Cancel a few permits until they put out the required amount of salt.

Regulation 62 of the Use Book was read to show that violation of Regulation 62 constituted trespass. It was agreed that in cases where enough salt is not being put out it should be mentioned in the quarterly grazing report, and the matter will be taken up with the permittee giving him warning in time. GBC: Says he hardly ever has any trouble with men salting their stock if he gets right after them. JHS: Thinks it would give a man a loophole by allowing him the privilege of taking a whole year to put out the required amount of salt.

Afternoon Session

The subject of salting was taken up again. WCM: Thinks present system of salting is working out all right, but does not think that on his particular district 10 lbs. is enough. He has no kick about permittees not putting out enough salt. JDG: (Q) Has anybody heard any kick from permittees about their being required to put out too much salt? No kick. JDG: Should more salt be put out next year? WCM: Thinks 5 lbs. more per head should be required next year. JLP: Thinks 10 lbs. of rock salt in that special locality (Metcalf) is enough, but he is not sure of it. He thinks it would be well to raise the amount to 12 or 15 lbs. Says the only thing stockmen would need to do would be to keep salt on their salting grounds. JHH: Thinks 15 lbs. would be better than 10. JR: Thinks about 15 lbs. would be enough. HOE: Thinks present amount is all right. GBC: Thinks 20 lbs. is little enough, and he knows from his own experience stock will eat double the amount if they can get it.

It was stated that the people admit that 10 lbs. of salt is not enough, but all of them do not put out that amount. JHS: Thinks we ought to wait until the people put out ten lbs. and then have them put out more. MLN: Agrees with Pritchard, that the Ranger on the job should use his judgment as to whether the stockmen should put out the full 15 lbs. Make a fifteen lb. limit and have it enforced where necessary. DBR: Does not think it would do any hurt to put out 15 lbs. If they do not use it one year, they will the next. Thinks it is pretty hard to tell how much salt a cow will use, but a good way to find out would be to give them more than enough. AL: Would be inclined to go slow and believes 10 lbs. would be plenty for the present. Thinks it would be wise to let it go at 10 lbs. for at least another year, as it appears from the talk today there is difficulty in getting men to salt. BSR: Thinks they ought to get used to the 10 lb. limit before they go any higher. WOW: Leave it at 10 lbs. JCW: Thinks 10 lbs. will be sufficient. FHM: Thinks it ought to be left at 10 lbs. for another year. JIP: Thinks we ought to raise at least one lb. to let the people know we are gradually bringing up the amount of salt. RTG: Thought a raise of at least 2 lbs. should be made as it would be noticed more. Vote taken as to those in favor of requiring 12 lbs. per head during 1911. 10 in favor of 12 lbs.: 3 in favor of 10 lbs. Discussion as to the practicability of putting salt on the ground. Troughs suggested.

C - Hogs. - Hog question discussed next. DG: Considerable complaint from people in regard to hogs getting into their gardens and fields. Should we try to cut down the number? We now have 9 permittees and they run from 5 to 50 head each. DBR: Says hogs are a hard thing to fence against and thinks they ought to be cut out unless they are on a homestead claim. AL: Inquired, how are hogs marked on the south end? HS: Earmarked. WOW: Says he has seen them both earmarked and branded. GBC: Thinks hogs should be eliminated from the forest if we think anything of our reproduction. FHM: Cited an instance in which they were very destructive to reproduction. JCW: Suggested setting a limit for each applicant. DBR: Says people can pay more on hogs than they can on goats, as they are more profitable. WOW and JCW: Know several people who are waiting to come on the Forest with hogs. FHM: Says they are the most destructive animal on the Forest. JHS: Says they are very destructive to gardens, camps and especially to springs. Thinks if they are doing damage to the majority of users they ought to be cut out. AL: Inquired whether hogs root out grass roots and destroy the range for cattle. HH: Says they root holes in the ground.

Vote taken as to those in favor of cutting down the number of hogs on the Forest. All in favor.

Discussion as to whether we should put up the fee or put a limit on the number of head each permittee shall have. JIP: Objection to limiting number of head is that if any are allowed to run at large they would do damage just the same. Should require permittees to keep their hogs fenced at their homes. JHS: Thinks they ought not be allowed to run free on the Forest. WOW: Suggests taking out two permits a year for hogs so that a Ranger could get a line on what hogs were on his district.

Vote taken as to those in favor of entirely eliminating hogs. 11 in favor. WOW: Thinks hogs should not be cut out entirely as it would cause a more bitter feeling against the Service. FHM: In favor of cutting them out entirely by next year, notifying them now. JCW: Is in favor of cutting them out. WOW: Thinks they ought to cut down every man to 5 head and next year cut them out. BSR: Believes they ought to be cut out entirely. AL: Cut them out entirely within a year. DBR: Cut then down this year and next year cut them out altogether. MLN: Give them time to get rid of then, but in time cut then out entirely. JHS: Is in favor of giving them time to get rid of the hogs. GBC: Is in favor of excluding them as fast as we can. They are dirty around camp, etc. HOE: Thinks they ought to be gotten rid of as they are very "undesirable citizens." JR: Thinks they ought to be excluded by 2 years. JHH: Cut them down to five and next year cut them out. WCM: Thinks they ought to allow some on the range around the permittees place. GBR: Thinks an investigation should be made into the hog question as he has seen no damage done by hogs. DBR: Thinks they do enough damage to streams, and springs, say nothing of the damage to young seedling growth, to justify cutting them out. JIP: Suggested that if permittees wanted hogs for their own use they could pen then up. Is in favor of cutting them out of the forest, and if it is possible, to notify the permittees within a month or so. Thinks it would work no hardship on the people as pork is so high this year. DCM: Thinks the best way to restrict them to a certain area or grazing district.

C. - Horses. - Discussion in regard to horses covered by permit.

JDG: Do you think all the horses that are running on the Blue District are under permit that should be? JCW: Does not think they are. Suggests having a roundup and have a sufficient number of Rangers to complete the roundup. WCM: Thinks a roundup would be of no advantage. WOW: Cited several cases where men were not paying on range horses. BSR: Thinks it would be well to have a roundup if they could get the necessary help. Al: Thinks the horses ought to be rounded up. DBR: Thinks stockmen ought to notify us when they have a roundup so the rangers could get to it.

Relative to wild horses on the range. - MLN: Thinks a wild horse is a pest and ought to be gotten rid of. JHS: Thinks there ought to be at least three or four Rangers to start out and gather up every horse they could find; they ought to go alone if they could not get any stockmen to go with them. GBC: Does not know of any feasible way of catching wild horses. JR: Does not think there is any way of getting after them. Would take three or four years to round them up. GBC: Says the only way we can help ourselves is to go to the roundups and get tabs on the horses.

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From the 1906 Use Book: Persons who allow their stock to drift and graze on the forest reserves without a permit, whether they do so intentionally or otherwise, will be regarded as trespassers, and will lose all right to privileges of any kind under sale or permit upon forest reserves.

* * * * * * * * * *

Discussion as to getting correct count on stock on the Forest. - JCW: Men would have to attend roundups. WOW: Says they have no general roundups on his District. BSR: Thinks it all right to attend roundups if the cowmen will give the correct number. AL: Would not expect calf tallies to be of much value the first year. DBR: Does not think calf tallies would amount to anything. JHS: Does not believe one man in ten knows how many cattle he has got. JHS: Believes the calf tally would be a benefit in about three or four years by comparing the calf tallies with the shipments. GBC: Doubts whether the calf tally would be of any benefit or not. HOE: Thinks calf tally ought to be continued. JR: Thinks it ought to be continued as the longer you work at it the more accurate results you would get. JHH: Thinks calf tally is all right. JIP: Thinks it is a good plan. Does not think it would do any harm. DCM: Says the majority of the cowmen are honest and are willing to do the right thing.

When this was put to the meeting, the large majority decided otherwise, that the average stockman looked at the grazing fee exactly as he did at his taxes, that it was perfectly allowable to beat the Government out of every cent possible.

Record of Grazing Permits - Blank forms, record of grazing permits, were distributed among the men. Question was brought up whether the information required on the blank would be of enough value to warrant its use. Vote taken as to those in favor of putting form into use. Majority in favor. (Question) Would a Ranger want to carry around this information in his notebook? (Referring to information on blank form.) JIP: Does not see that it would be of enough use to be worthwhile. DCM: Suggested some revisions in form be made. (See attached form.) [Ed.: form was not included with the manuscript] WOW: Suggested throwing out calf tally and keeping other record.

Discussion as to system of individual ranges; whether grazing districts should be the same as the Ranger Districts. It was agreed that grazing districts should be the same as the ranger districts wherever possible. This is now done, with a few exceptions, where it has not been found to be practicable.

Tuesday, September 13, 1910.

Meeting opened at 9:25 a.m. Those present were Frederic Winn, R. E. Marsh, R. E. Hopson, O. Bishop, W. P. Lawson, J. W. Hough, Clifford W. McKibben, G. B. Rencher, Claud McDowell, C. Hollis Collingwood, J. H. Hinck, J. H. Sizer, W. C. Martin, H. O. Eaton, James Reagan, T. Wells, Aldo Leopold, G. B. Chapin, D. B. Rudd, L. L. Nichols, J. I. Pritchard, H. Basil Wales, R. T. Gheen, W. C. Wheatley, B. S. Rogers, J. C. Wheatley, F. H. Mitchell, D. C. Martin, J. B. Guthrie.

The question of individual cattle ranges was taken up for discussion.

J. D. Guthrie: You all understand the Forest is divided into five grazing districts and each grazing district is divided into individual cattle ranges. It is questionable whether these individual cattle ranges are of any benefit or not. If we make the ranges larger, it would give us more power in requiring permittees to fight fire. JCW: Stated that it seemed to him the best idea would be to set aside a larger grazing district, as it would overcome to some extent the difficulty of getting fire fighters. JDG: Have the grazing districts the same as the ranger districts. BSR: Thinks it would be an advantage as we could get more fire fighters, as the permittees would have no comeback. JIP: What was the idea of making individual cattle ranges in the beginning? JDG: To have a more definite location for each particular brand of stock. JIP: Thinks by having a large grazing district it would be easier to get men to fight fire. JDG: Would we have kicks on account of drift? MLN: Thinks it would be of some advantage in getting fire fighters but thinks it might cause some conflict between cattlemen. DBR: Thinks grazing districts should be established and the small ranges abolished. Thinks the individual grazing districts interfere with fire fighting. GBC: Is in favor of having small cattle ranges. Says there is an understanding among the cattlemen that they have a certain range. HOE: Thinks both sides of the question have valuable points, and if the large majority agree to have large grazing districts it is agreeable to him. Does not see any advantage of the small districts on his district. GBC: Thinks cattlemen should have the privilege of saying where their cattle should be put. JDG: Stated that a man paying on 30 head may apply for several different ranges, if they want different range. AL: Thinks Major's idea is exactly right, that the location of stock varies with conditions so much from time to time, that the cattle ranges on the map are entirely too rigid, thinks the lines of the grazing districts should correspond with the lines of the ranger districts. It would be of some advantage to forest users as they would know to what ranger to apply for grazing permit. HOE: The objection to this would be the routine in the office and difficulty in getting permittees to go a long distance to fight fires. DBR: Thinks there would be less confusion by not having names for the districts. WCM: Is inclined to favor the larger cattle ranges as it would cause less confusion in a good many ways — have grazing districts same as ranger districts. JHS: Thinks grazing districts ought to conform to ranger districts. MLN: Thinks there would be some conflict between cattlemen as to the favored part of the district. JIP: Thinks cattlemen would throw their cattle on the favored districts. DBR: Thinks Rangers should say where salting grounds should be located. Thinks cattlemen have enough respect for each other so there would not be any trouble. JHH: Thinks the grazing and ranger districts should be the same. GBR: Thinks having grazing district same as ranger district would be a good thing. DCM: Says it may not be possible to make them always the same, but it would be preferable to what we have at present. Where it is possible, believe it would be well to have the grazing district coincide with the Ranger District. Thinks it would simplify matters to call them by names of the ranger districts, and number them 1, 2, 3, etc. GBC: Thought there would be less confusion where local names are used, and believed there were plenty of them. JIP: Suggested giving the grazing district a number and a name.

There was some discussion in regard to stock drifting off the large districts.

Vote taken as to whether grazing districts should be the same as ranger districts. All in favor except Rogers.

Vote taken as to those in favor of giving grazing districts a number. 3 in favor.

Figure 29. Full size reproduction of Form 874-17, "Crossing Permit" for livestock. This form, and numerous others, were kept in a pocket sized, two-ring, leather notebook which was designated "Forest Service Form 874-C". This pocket sized office allowed a Ranger to do his paper work in the field.

WOW: Is in favor of giving both number and name of Ranger District. DBR: Why not name the grazing district after the name of the ranger station.

Discussion in regard to naming grazing districts the same as the ranger stations. HOE: Does not think it would be well on his district. JDG: Thinks it best not to have an ironbound rule, but where we see fit have it the same as the Ranger District.

Drift Stock - The question of drift stock was again brought up — whether any great amount of horses and cattle drift on the Indian Reservation. BSR: Stated that Slaughter's cattle drift on there in the winter time. HOE. There is some drift from the Sitgreaves and the Indian Reservation. Indians come in every once in awhile and round them up and get $1.00 per head for all stock found. Drift on the Indian Reservation is more than offset by their drift over here. JDG: How can we get at the amount of drift except by going with roundups? Might cooperate with Indian Office. HOE: Thinks proposition (drift on reservation) is a difficult one to handle. DBR: Thinks if we keep tabs on the cattle that drift from the Indian Reservation over here, just as they do, we might get a compromise. JDG: I guess you all understand that the Indian addition is more or less up in the air and until the thing is more definitely settled, I think we might make some cooperative agreement, especially in grazing.

Crossing Permits - The question of crossing permits for sheep going to Clifton was taken up. JDG: We could hardly refuse to grant a man a permit to get his stock to market. The point is whether it is practicable to grant crossing permits clear to the south end for sheep. JCW: Thinks the Service ought to do so. Does not see how we can refuse to allow people to take their sheep to market. FHM: Thinks there would be no objection if the sheep were kept on the wagon road. WOW: Thinks it would be well for sheep to be driven down there as it would drive out the grass burs which are a pest. Does not think the Blue people would have any objection to the driving of sheep down the river.

Discussion as to the possibility of keeping sheep on the wagon road. MLN: Does not see what the use of the permit is if they have a right to the wagon road. JIP: Thinks it would be all right to use the road if they kept on it. DBR: Thinks all permittees should be allowed to take their sheep to market no matter where they went, but thinks they should be confined to a certain route and should be made to go as fast as possible. If they abuse the privilege in any way, cut them out entirely. JHS: Thinks the people in whose country the sheep-drive would go through should be considered. JCW: Thinks there will be no kick. GBC: Advocates having a regular sheep driveway for the people to use. HOE: Thinks that sheep should be allowed to go down under the Forest restrictions, but not allowed to come back. Does not think we could restrict the use of the driveway to permittees. AL: Thinks it would take all the rangers on the forest to keep the sheep on the road, as the road is only 100 feet wide and sheep could not possibly keep on it. Thinks people in Clifton do not need sheep from this end. JIP: When the Forest Service says stockmen cannot drive sheep across the forest, it is interfering with industrial conditions. Thinks they ought to be able to drive their sheep to Clifton as long as they can get a better price. JCW: Says it will not hurt the country along the Blue. FHM: Thinks it will eventually.

Figure 30. Early day horse work on the Apache - a patrolman looking for fires, May 29, 1913.

The point was brought up that the sheepmen on the south end would want to bring their sheep to Holbrook if the price was better. DBR: Suggested confining the use of the driveway to permittees. JR: Thinks the stockmen should be granted a driveway of some kind in order to get their sheep to market. WCM: Thinks if they are going to drive thousands down there, it ought not to be allowed. JDG: It is up to the National Forest to protect the people in and near the National Forest. If there is a just kick from the people along the Blue, the thing should be cut out. JHH: Thinks they ought to be given a driveway down the river just for marketing their stock. GBR: Believes they should have a driveway down the river. Believes they will only go but once. DCM: Thinks that a whole lot of the troubles are imaginary. Thinks if we can confine the stock to a certain route, it would be all right. Thinks it would be only the inferior stock that would go to the south end, as they can sell most anything to the people in Clifton.

Vote taken as to those in favor of granting crossing permits to sheep men to carry their sheep to the south end, through the Forest, provided they follow the road: 10 in favor; 5 opposed.

Afternoon Session.

Counting Corrals - JDG: Taking up again the subject of crossing permits, but not down the Blue this time; in order to avoid the necessity for granting crossing permits, two sheep driveways have been provided, but practically only one is used. In regard to counting, I believe all sheep should be counted when they go on the Forest. Relative to a man crossing another man's grazing allotment, do not think it ought to be encouraged, but if a man does not object to another man crossing his area, see no reason for refusing to grant crossing permit. Have had no kick from men using driveway. JIP: Are the corrals at Iris satisfactory for counting? Stated he took out part of the chute that was there and let the sheep come through a hole in the fence. The old corral there can be used for several years more. It seems to be very well located. GBC: Had no objection to the counting corral at Nutrioso but thinks sheepmen when coming off should be required to notify the ranger. AL: Brought up the point that Riggs Creek was being eaten up by sheep, leaving only a couple of other creeks in which cattle could be gotten up on the Mountain. Riggs Creek was the easiest, and practically the only creek by which poor weak cattle could get up on the mountains. DCM: Suggested that if another counting corral is to be built, it be made different from the one at Nutrioso, as the opening is too large. JIP: Thinks opening is too small: can count sheep going fast better than going slow. DCM: Recommended using a gate to regulate opening. It was agreed by the majority that the faster the sheep went, within reasonable numbers, the easier it was to count them.

It was stated that there has been a great deal of kicking on the part of the cattlemen in the Coyote country about sheep overgrazing the land. Advisability of putting sheep on the top of Escudilla: GBC: Stated that it is not advisable at all. Would conflict with the interests of everybody who has heretofore used that country. Horses use that country more than anything else: it is almost considered a pasture by the people in that vicinity.

Counts on Cattle - JDG: (Question to JCW). What percentage of the cattlemen on the Blue District do you think are paying on all they have got on the Forest? JCW: Does not believe there are any paying on all they have got. Might be one or two. Johnson and Thompson. JDG: (Question to FHM) How many on the Clifton District? FHM: About 80 percent. BSR: Is satisfied that Slaughter does not pay on all he has. WOW: 65% on Baseline District. DBR: Thinks hardly a cattleman pays on all he has got. Thinks they ought to be raised until the stock owners are willing to have a count. Raise them on a proportion, as much as possible. Ought to be some system by which cattle could be counted every once in five years. JCW: Says it is easier to round up cattle now than it was years ago.

DBR: Thinks it is no easier. Says if a Ranger works with cattle all year he knows about what a man has. HOE: Thinks they pay on at least 80 per cent on Greer District. AL: From what he picks up from conversations, the cowmen do not consider they are paying on all they have got. JR: Knows that they are not paying on all they have got, at least certain parties are not. WCM: Is satisfied that some large owners are not paying on all they have got. There are several of them who live over at Eagar. JHS: Thinks that all but two are paying on all they have got on the Eagle District (Double Circle and 4 - 4.) HOE: Says there is one man on his District who is paying on more than he has got. (Barrett). GBR: Says small owners generally pay on all they have got; the big ones pay on less than they have on the reserve. DCM: Believes the same as Rencher. JDG: We ought to spend all our efforts in getting at what the big men have got. More criticism in this regard in the handling of grazing than in any other thing. JDG: (Question to JCW) Is it practicable on Blue District for a man to work with roundups? JCW: Yes. FHM: Have no roundups on his district. BSR: Says it is easy to attend Circle roundup but hard to get to Slaughter's roundup as they never let it be known when they work. WOW: Practically impossible to attend all the roundups as they generally begin on the same date on Baseline. MLN: Never any general roundup in his district (Metcalf). DBR: Thinks it is up to the Ranger a good deal to find the very best way he can of getting a check on the cattle on his district. Thinks he should take notice of all the cattle on his district, all the time, and by so doing he can get a general idea by the time fall comes around each year, of what cattle are on his district. GBC: Thinks a good way to find out the number of stock a man has is to get the sanitary inspectors' records. JDG: Stated. "We get the Arizona News which is supposed to have a list of all stock sold in Arizona, and where it is sold. It gives date, place, number and brand." HOE: Stated that where it has been possible he has attended roundups. Thinks it is the only way a Ranger can get at how many cattle a man has. JHS: Agrees with Eaton. that that is the only way to get at it. Thinks there ought to be more than one ranger at each roundup. In some cases. where there is more than one brand to be counted, he has to take some cowpuncher's word. MLN: Inquired if a Ranger had the right to ask a man to string out his cattle, in order to count them. WCM: Wanted to know if a ranger had the right to ask a man to cut out his cattle.

Mr. Guthrie answered these questions by stating that a Ranger had the right, provided no hardship was worked on the stockman. GBR: Suggested raising the number of stock on each man's permit until he demanded a count. WOW: Thinks if a man follows up these roundups, there should be at least two rangers on each district.

Range Improvement - Aldo Leopold brought up the subject of fencing springs. Says Rudd Knolls spring was filled with sheep litter last summer, on account of Bud Greer's sheep staying there. DBR: Stated that this spring is 4 feet deep with a rocky bottom. GBC: Said proposition was made four years ago that each man should fence at least two springs each season, but was not followed out. JDG: Suggested that the idea of Major's be taken up again. BSR: Says springs will have to be fenced before they can be fixed up in any shape. JDG: Thinks we will have very little trouble in getting both cowmen and sheepmen to fix up springs. WOW: Thinks there would be no trouble in getting men to do it. GBC: Suggested having a man repair the particular spring he was interested in.

Special Use Pastures. — This subject was discussed. JDG: The number of special use pastures has increased remarkably in the last year on this Forest, — only three reports that have come in, have not been approved. In my mind, it is quite a question how to keep a check on these pastures, i.e,. not allow them to get too numerous. If we don't put a check on them, it means the open range is going to get fenced more and more. Special use pastures, together with school sections on the north end, do cut down the cattle and sheep areas considerably. General Question: How large a pasture should a man have paying on 100 head of cattle? JCW: On the Blue District he ought to have a pasture not smaller than 150 or 175 acres; a man with 40 cattle, 80 acres would be little enough. FHM: A man paying on 100 head should have a section of land if he is on the south slope of Limestone Mt. A man on the juniper land should not be allowed over 80 acres of land for 100 head. BSR: A man paying on 100 head of cattle should have a pasture of 50 acres. WOW: Inasmuch as a pasture is not used the year round, a man should be allowed 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 acres per head, and in some places where perhaps it is better, hold him down to an acre per head. If the land is very poor, it would be of no value to fence. JLP: Stated that it all depends upon what the man intends to use the pasture for, whether simply for holding steers or whether he is going to keep milk cows in it all the time, or for holding horses. MLN: Says one would have to take into consideration what the land is to be used for and the condition of the land. For 100 head, from 100 to 125 acres. DBR: Stated that it depends a great deal on the kind of grass it is. Should have 320 acres where 100 head use it the year round. JDG: I took the matter up with the District Forester last year as to just what the policy was. He said the policy was to discourage fencing up the Forest and grant special use pastures only when necessary for the handling of stock. It is a hard proposition to keep them down, but at the same time you have got to recognize that a man need its. GBC: Must take into consideration whether it is going to interfere with the rights of others or not. HOE: Says it depends upon several questions. - What he wants to use it for, location he applies for, and quality of grass. For 100 head of cattle, 75 to 100 acres. MLN: Thinks a man should keep his pasture for an emergency; run his cattle in it in times when the range is poor, and outside when the range is good. JR: 100 acres to 100 head. Suggests putting valuation on the land in order to get at a proportion. JHS: 80 acres for 100 head, when pasture is used only a few weeks at a time. Says in some cases more than one party uses the same pasture and in that case it should be of pretty good size.

A brief discussion followed about more than one party using a pasture. It was stated that if a ranger thinks a pasture is being injured he should recommend cancellation of the permit. WCM: Thinks it depends upon the country. About 100 acres on his district would be sufficient for 100 head. CMcD: Thinks that is about the right ratio. GBR: Thinks it ought to be as little as it could for it is the policy to discourage pastures on the National Forest. DCM: Stated that he differs with the whole bunch. Thinks a man should have enough pasture to keep his saddle horses, when not in use. Says a man with a small bunch of cattle needs a pasture in order to handle them profitably. It's the policy to encourage small stockmen instead of large owners. Believes 200 acres for 100 is sufficient, but it depends upon the place.

Session closed at 5 p.m.

Wednesday, September 14, 1910.

Meeting opened at 9 a.m. Those present were D. C. Martin, Claud McDowell, W. P. Lawson, J. H. Hinck, W. C. Martin, C. D. Rencher, R. E. Hopson, G. B. Chapin, J. L. Pritchard, Aldo Leopold, H. O. Eaton, D. B. Rudd, J. H. Sizer, R. E. Marsh, W. C. Wheatley, B. S. Rogers, F. H. Mitchell, T. Wells, James Reagan, Frederic Winn, J. D. Guthrie.

Settlement - Discussion as to Ira Harper getting 40 additional acres near his homestead claim, but not adjoining it.

The question of a man having the right to sell the improvements on his claim was discussed at some length. GBC: Came to the conclusion that the whole sum and substance of it was that a man cannot sell anything that belongs to the Government.

Discussion as to the length of time a man is required to stay on his claim, whether he can leave it or not, etc. MLN: Stated it was believed by some people that they had the right to be absent from their claim for six months in order to send their children to school. JDG: Stated the six months absence clause applied principally to the northwestern States and not to Arizona. Such a case should he taken up with the land office by the claimant in each case and permission obtained for each absence.

It was stated that grazing land should not exceed agricultural land in areas recommended for listing, but could equal it. MLN: Inquired if it is the understanding that a man can get 40 acres of land in addition to his homestead right for 120 acres, provided it joins the 120 acres. JDG: Answered. Yes, provided it is more valuable for agriculture.

Use Book was read. It was found that a man could take up an additional homestead by paying $2.50 per acre, where he was on the land prior to the creation of the Forest. Discussion between Mr. Russ and Mr. Guthrie whether land should be adjoining in order to be filed on.

Discussion in regard to Tenny's case at Alpine. HOE: Brought up a case on his District in which certain parties wanted to know the possibility of getting land on top of the White Mts. for agricultural purposes under Act of June 11, 1906. It is open country and good land, but season too short for growing crops. Mr. Eaton inquired what action a Ranger should take, whether he should tell the man there was no show at all, or whether he should leave it up entirely to the man. JDG: You should discourage applications for such land. If there is no show for the man to get the land, the Ranger might tell him so, but leave it up entirely to the man whether he should apply for it or not. Supply the man with blanks and tell him frankly the possibility of his getting it.

In regard to a man leaving his homestead claim, it was stated that the land office allows no definite time of absence, and if a man must have absence, it is up to him to take it up with the land office. Brinkley's case was brought up. Twenty acres of Mr. Brinkley's claim is covered by Colter's reservoir and he wants to know if he can get 20 acres additional. It was decided that if it was an Interior case he (Right of Way) would have had some chance of getting the 20 acres. It was decided that the Brinkley case should be looked into, to see which was prior — Reservoir or listing of June 11 claim. Discussion regarding certain claims cases on the Forest followed, in which adverse reports had been submitted by Forest officers.

Forest Surveys - Stations & Settlement - The question of whet should Forest Service monuments or June 11 monuments be made of, was brought up. JLP: Thought they should be made out of something that will withstand the pawing of a Supervisor a horse. (joke) WOW: Believes a large boulder half buried would make the best monument. JLP: Thinks a mound of small stones built up two or three feet high is more likely to be torn down than three or four good-sized stones.

It was stated that monuments are often destroyed by cattle rubbing against them.

It was decided that the best monument is a half-buried boulder, or a stake driven in the ground and stones piled around it.

Settlement - Mr. Guthrie talked a few minutes on Settlement, Settlement Uses, etc. He stated that a man taking out a special use permit to try out the land, if he filed on the land, he could not be allowed the time he was on the land under special use, in proving up on his claim. The only advantage of his taking out a special use would be that he would not use his homestead right. If a man wants a special use permit he must apply for it on his own hook, for we could not offer him one. Supposing a man files on a homestead claim and does not live on it for five years, he forfeits his homestead rights. If a man abandons his homestead on account of drought, it depends upon the merits of the case whether he loses his homestead rights, the question to be decided by the Land Office entirely.

Some cases were mentioned where parties applied for land, which on being examined, only a small portion was recommended for listing. Mr. Guthrie stated that the applicants could apply again for enough land to make up the 160 acres, provided there was adjoining agricultural land.

JLP: Inquired if a man can file under filing fees already paid or must he pay new filing fees. Mr. Guthrie stated that he must pay new filing fees.

Discussion about bona fide squatters selling the right to file on the land which they have settled on. Mr. Guthrie stated that they could not sell their right to file on the land.

A case was brought up where a man was using homestead land for pasture only. Mr. Guthrie stated that unless we could show that it was interfering with the best interests of the Forest, we would have to wait until the five years were up and then contest in on the ground of noncompliance with Homestead Laws.

Discussion as to whether Forest officers had jurisdiction over June 11 claims, whether after being filed on they were not strictly under the Department of Interior and not the Forest Service.

Afternoon Session

Annual Grazing Reports - The question of having Rangers submit a grazing map with the Annual Grazing Report was discussed. WOW: Thinks map would be a pretty good thing. BSR: Thinks it would be all right. FHM: Does not think it would be of any benefit. JCW: Does not see that a map would be of any advantage. JLP: Thinks it would cause a Ranger to study the range on his district a little more and thereby be of advantage. JDG: Thinks a map would be of some value to the office, to have on it the portions of the range that are overgrazed, undergrazed, that needed range improvements, etc. JLP: Thinks the chief value would be in creating an interest in range conditions. Says a map of any kind of work is worth considerable. WOW: Thinks most important point is that it would be of great help to a new man going on a district. DCM: Thinks some things can be shown more conveniently on a map, and wherever such is the case it should be done. Thinks just grazing dope should be shown on grazing map. JHS: Says a map would not do him any good for all the overgrazed land on his district is on the creek, and the only way to overcome this is to improve the springs and build troughs. JR: Thinks a map would be of some benefit. MLN: Believes a map would be of value. Thinks it would be an incentive to a man to study his district, and that it would cause him to keep his eyes open. GBR: Thinks a map would be a good thing. WCM: Thinks it would be all right and that salting grounds, springs, etc. should be located on them.

Question of having applications for grazing permit submitted in fall instead of spring, or not later than January 1, was discussed. JCW: Stated that the present plan suits him. JHS: Says cattlemen will complain that his cattle may die before grazing season opens. Heaviest losses are in March and April.

Improvement - Mr. Guthrie stated that the amount allotted for the Apache was $3200 for this year, considerably less than last year, which of course means that the improvement work will be handicapped. Ranger labor on improvement projects does not necessarily have to be charged to the different projects. The plan is to put the bulk of the money we have into material. This is absolutely necessary in order to make the amount go as far as it possibly can. The improvement work this year will be carried out as follows:

We have a larger salary allotment this year than we had last, but of course we will use it all up. On certain districts this year, I hope to get at improvement on trail work, fixing up and repairing trails that are in need of it. The question of signboards has been talked of considerably. Material for the construction of signboards does not have to be charged to improvement, but to general expense. HOE: Stated that more pasture is needed on his district (Greer). FHM: Says there is a greater need for pasture on the south end than on the north end of the Forest.

The advisability of having each ranger make an improvement map, showing the proposed improvement work, to be submitted with annual Improvement report, was discussed. All in favor of making such a map. WCM: Thinks it would be a good idea but does not see any use of it if we have no money to do any work. MLN: Thinks by making a map and showing just what improvement work ought to be done, we might get more money next year. It was suggested that the maps show the location of proposed fire boxes, trails, springs, water troughs, telephone lines, etc.

Figure 31. Honeymoon Ranger Station, Apache National Forest. Photo by Joseph C. Kirchner August 1923.

Discussion in regard to telephone - WOW: Thinks we need telephone lines more than we do pastures and houses; they should be first of everything. Suggested phone line from Alma to Blue, 9 miles. GBC: Thinks there should be a line from Lookout, as more fires can be seen from that point than any other. HOE: Stated that we could get all the hauling done by cooperation from Lee Valley if line was put to Greer from Springerville. JCW: Need a line from Blue Range to Blue River Ranger Station. WOW: Believes it would be well to put in two lines of the most importance out of the five mentioned — line from Blue R.S. to the Blue Range the most important. Discussion as to the possibility of getting permittees by phone at Hannagan meadow to fight fire.

Filing - JDG: It is the plan to have all the permanent ranger stations equipped with oak filing cases very shortly. I have not insisted very much on filing, as I did not think it just to jump on a man for not filing when he had nothing to file in. But when you get the oak filing cases, there will be no excuse for not having your files in shape. Most of the files inspected have been in mighty good shape considering the lack of filing equipment. Typewriters are now on the way for all the Stations. It seems foolish to get oak filing cases and typewriters for Ranger Stations that are nearly falling down, but as long as we had the chance to get them there was no need of throwing it away.

Notices - (General Question) Do you think it practicable to get out tin fire notices? Would they be an improvement over the present ones? It was decided that the tin signs would be more satisfactory as the squirrels could not destroy them and they could not be easily torn down. JCW: Suggested having tin game notices, giving the opening and closing of the different seasons.

In closing, a few general points were taken up and briefly discussed.

AL: Brought up the point of sheep using the same bedding ground all season. HOE: Brought up a discussion in regard to sheep crossing excluded areas.

The matter of seed collecting was again taken up. Mr. Guthrie suggested getting all they could where Greenamyre was working, from squirrels' nests, and at sawmills. Suggested turning this work over to temporary men wherever possible to do so. Called attention to the fact that sample seeds for testing are required of each Ranger, and that these samples should be sent to the District Office as soon as possible.

Meeting adjourned 4:30 p.m. This closed the meetings.

Figure 32. Honeymoon Ranger Station barn and corral. Apache National Forest. Photo by Joseph C. Kirchner August 1923.